December 13, 1918.

THE COLLIERY GUARDIAN.

1241

MIDLAND INSTITUTE OF MINING, CIVIL
AND MECHANICAL ENGINEERS.

A general meeting of the Midland Institute of Mining’
Civil and Mechanical Engineers was held at the Applied
Science Department of the University of Sheffield, on
Thursday, December 5, the President (Mr. W. D.
Lloyd, of Altofts) occupying the chair.

New Members.

The following were declared duly elected :—Members :
Mr. E. Schofield, “ The Rosary,” Leventborpe, Woodies-
ford, near Leeds; Mr. J. E. Tredgold, 42, Garden-
street, Castleford. Associate members : Capt. R. O.
Raynor, M.B.E., F.R.C.L, The Red House, Walton-on-
Thames, Surrey; Mr. H. Senior, Lane Top, Whitley
Lower, Dewsbury; Mr. B. Totty, The Villas, Snydale,
near Pontefiact.

Training Mining Students.

A paper on “The Training of Students in Coal
Mining, with special reference to the scheme of the
Engineering Training Organisation,” by Pr< f. F. W.
Hardwick, M.A.,* was read (in the unavoidable absence
of the author) by the Secretary.

Discussion.

The President, in opening the discussion, explained
the origin of the paper. He said that on October 3,
1918, the general purposes committee of the council
of the Institution of Mining Engineers considered a
memorandum received from the Engineering Training
Organisation., which enquired whether the council
would be billing to set aside one of their ordinary
meetings for the discussion of engineering training, in
order to assist the Engineering Training Organisation
in the development of this work, and pointed out that
it vyas part of the executive’s plan to obtain a complete
series of .memoranda dealing with the special features
of training appropriate to the different branches of
engineering, and that it would be of very great service
if the council could at range for a brief paper to be
prepared relating to the particular section in which th ^
institution was interested. Such a paper would thtn
serve the dual purpose of opening the discussion and a
memorandum for inclusion in the Engineering Training
Organisation series. In order that such papers might
proceed direct to the discussion of the special points
that were of importance to the pupils who contemplated
following the particular branch of the profession to
which they related, it was necessary that the broader
principles common to engineering pupilage in all
branches of engineering should be covered by some
fundamental document to which the briefer papers
mentioned above were supplementary. It was proposed
to use an artie’e written by Mr. A. E. Berriman on
“ The Engineering Pupilage and the Engineering Tiade
Apprenticeship,” which appeared in Engineering on
February 1, 1918, for this purpose, and it was suggested
that the papers relating to the specific branches of
engineering should be written with direct reference to
this central document, and should draw attention t >
any points where a departure from the recom-
mended principles seemed desirable. It was aho
pointed out that it was of the utmost importance
to confine these discussions on engineering training
to. clearly defined issues, and it was hoped that
this might be facilitated by the course suggested.
The committee considered that it was des rable to
accede to this request, but, seeing that the next geneial
meeting of the institution would not be held till next
June, they decided to ask Pi of. Hardwick to write a
paper such as suggested, and to ask the various
institutes to discuss the paper at one of their meetings
as soon as convenient. He believed the Midland
Institute was the first to do so, but he presumed that
the subject would shortly be under discussion by the
other i'.s’itutes, and that the points raisedin the several
discussions would be considered by the Engineering
Tra ning Organisation in the memorandum they pro-
posed to publish. The discussion should also greatly
assist the special committee of the Midland Institute,
who had und-r consideration at the present time a
comprehensive scheme for improving facilities for
mining education in Yorkshire.

Prof. Hardwick pointed out, in the first instance,
that it was necessary that such a central bureau as was
proposed should receive information from the various
branches of the engineering profession as to what
facilities at present existed for an education in their
particular branches of engineering. He (Mr. Lloyd)
thought that such a survey as Prof. Hardwick suggested
would be valuable at the present moment, more parti-
cularly to those who were interested in improving
mining education. The present position of technical
education in mining was far from being satisfactory,
and he hoped that before the institution furnished the
suggested central bureau with information on this point
such improvements would have been inaugurated that
a statement of the position as it existed to-day would be
out of date, at any rate as regarded Yorkshire.

The paper pointed out that the suggestion that a
pupil should have one year’s experience at a colliery
after leaving school and before entering a university
required careful consideration. To obtain the full
benefit of such a course the student should have an
opportunity, during this period, of obtaining a general
survey of the work and conditions at a colliery. Pre-
sumably, this would have to be under the same firm of
which he intended to become a pupil. Mr. Berriman
pointed out that “ it must, however, be made possible,
by allowing time off for attendance at school, to main-
tain the continuity of systematic mental instruction
that is essential to the carrying out of the higher educa-
tional plan.” If the preliminary year was to be
regarded as part of the period qualifying the student
to sit for a first-class certificate, the present require-
ments of the Examinations Board would necessitate him
being employed in actual practical work underground.
If he was to be tied down in this way, it was doubtful if

* Colliery Guardian, December 6, 1918, p. 1187.

he would obtain as great a benefit as was contemplated.
This raised the point as to whether or not the present
regulations would debar men who had had a public
school education, and who wished to become mining
engineers, from doing so, and thus deprive the industry
of their services. The Act provided that “The owner
or agent of a mine required to be under the control of a
manager shall not take any part in the technical
management of the mine unit ss he is qualified to be a
manager.” It was therefore essential that a man who
aimed at occupying a position in control of mines must
first obtain his certificate as mine manager. To do so,
in addition to having obtained an approved diploma or
degree, he must spend the greater portion of three years
underground in actual practical work at the working
face and other parts of the underground workings, or in
direct supervision of such work.

It would be useful if membeis would state their ideas
on this point, and also he thought some definite ruling
should be obtained from the Examinations Board. Fot-
ins tance, supposing a boy left a public school at the age
of 18, having passed his matriculation, and then went
for a year to a mine—say, to be employed on actual
work three days a week, and the other three days he
was at liberty to go round with the manager or
some other official to obtain a general insight
into methods of working and supervision—a year
thus spent sh< uld count as six months towards the
requirements of the Board, and would also give him sink
opportunities as were desired by Mr. Berriman. He
would go to a university for at least two years, and
obtain his diploma or degree. He would then retain to
the mine, and, if he was prepared to stay the course, he
would have, say, another year—half in actual work and
half in going round gaining actual experience. At the
end of that time he would have left sell- ol four years,
and, supposing he had not done any actual undeiground
work during his university vacations, he would < nly
have one year’s work to his credit with the Examinations
Boaid. He should, however, be in a position to then
be entrusted with direct supervision—at any rate,
to a limited extent—and a year spent in this way would,
at the end of five years, provide him with his diploma
or degree—one year’s actual work underground, one
year in dir< ct supervision, and one year spent under-
ground, but not on work approved by the Board. He
would then be 23 years old, and, if the Board approved
of his training, would be entitled to sit for his mine
manager's certificate. Presumably, whilst at the univer-
sity, he would also have qualified for or obtained a
surveyor’s certificate.

He thought Prof. Hardwick was mistaken in stating
that “a student who has obtained his first-class certifi-
cate must spend a further two years in working for the
surveyor’s certificate.” He believed he was correct in
stating that no definite term of experience was necessary
for a surveyor, under the Order issued under section 20
of the Coal Mines Act, and provided as an alternative
to obtaining a surveyor’s certificate by examination.
The holder of a first-class certificate could obtain an
endorsement to that certificate by furnishing evidence
that he had had at least two years’ practical experience
in mine surveying. This was a privilege extended to
managers who received their certificate prior to the
passing of the Act. As a matter of fact, it was now
possible for a man to take the surveyor’s examination
at the same time as his examination for the first-class
certificate, and the institutions' whose diplomas and
degrees had been approved by the Secretary of State
as an alternative to two years practical experience
underground for the managers’ examination, had also
been approved to grant surveyors’ certificates.

With regard to the period of training as it applied to
the qualifications to sit for a mine manager’s examina-
tion, he thought it was obvious that a definite scheme
of underground tiaining, by a pupil of the sort that
they were discussing at the moment, ought to be
arranged. He thought the old method of simply letting
an articled pupil have the run of the pit, without any
very defined scheme of training, was out of date.

The technical training of boys whose parents could
not afford to give them a public school education, must
be undertaken in a different manner. Mr. Berriman,
in his paper, made a strong plea for the revival of the
system of apprenticeship in the engineering tiades.
That system as usually understood in the skilled trades,
as defined by Mr. Berriman, did not appear applicable
to the ordinary rank and file of underground woi kers.
It might, and did, to some extent, obtain in colliery
workshops ; and it was to the interest of the industry,
as a whole, that steps should be taken to encourage the
establishment of a system of apprenticeship for men
who wished to become colliery officials. A scheme of
this description was in force at Rotber Vale and in
South Wales, and it would be interesting to learn what
results had so far been obtained. A scheme somewhat
on the following lines would seem to be desirable :—

Young men of, say, 18 years of age already employed
at collieries who, after leaving the elementary schools,
had had the advantage of a secondary education, and
who seemed likely to develop into useful officials, should
be financially assisted to attend specialised classes,
either at ]oc d technical schools or mining colleges, for
six months in each year on a three years course.
During the other three months, and during the subse-
quent three years, they would continue to be employed
at the collieries undergoing a definite scheme of training.
The colliery company should be responsible for the
payment of fees and travelling expenses, and a reason-
able wage -during the whole period of apprenticeship.
Separate courses should be arranged for men to
specialise in (a) mining engineering, (b) colliery
mechanical engineering, and (c) colliery chemical
engineering.

The best students from these classes should be
encouraged by liberal scholarships to continue their
education by a full-time course at the universities, at
which also suitable classes, say, on one day a 'week,
might be arranged fcr those men who had pas-ed
through the first course, and for whom it was desirable
to provide a continuity of theoretical training until they
were 23 years old and qualified to sit for their first or
second class mine manager’s certificates.

Mr. Harry Rhodes remarked that the system
adopted at Rother Vale, to which the president had
referred, was also in operation at Dalton Main Colliery.

The President said they would be glad to have any
information as to how it was going on there.

Mr. A. Blenkinsop (Dalton Main) said he did not
think the system had been in operation long enough to
enable them to give a definite opinion upon it. They
started some five or six years ago by getting likely lads
to attend night schools. The company paid their fees,
put them always on days, and allowed them to get away
early. Two years ago, they went in for the part-time
university course. The boys were doing well, and were
being trained not only in the workshops but under-
ground. There v as every prospect of the scheme leing
a success. Later on, when more data were available,
they might be able to give fuller information.

Mr. J. H. W. Laverick (Tinsley Park) said it was
possible for a mining student to get his surveyor’s
certificate as soon as he was able to pass the examina-
tion. Suppose a student started at the age of 16 or 17,
there seemed to be nothing to prevent him getting his
surveyor’s certificate by the time he was 19. As a
matter of fact, one of their Tinsley Park boys had done
so, which was a clear proof that it could be done. He
(the speaker) thought this was rather a good thing,
because it got the surveying work out of the way while
the student’s muscles were forming for the practical
work, at the coal face, that he would have to go
through when he arrived at the age of about ]9 or
20. He, therefore, encouraged students who < ame
to him to get through their surveying as quickly as
possible, obtain their certificates, and then go straight
to the coal face and get some practical work done. It
was rather an appalling thing, when they came to think
of it, that, although they had before them so many
papers on the education of miners and mining engineers,
and so on, they had not yet evolved anything that
might be called a system of perfection. It struck him
that it might not be. a bad plan if a few people like
Mr. Blake Walker and one or two others were locked
up in a room for about six hours. He thought that at
the end of that time they would have evolved some-
thing systematic, that would be a credit to the mining
profession. It bad certainly been talked about for a
very long while, and he thought it was high time they
agreed upon what the course should be. He hoped that
when a system was decided upon it would be one that
would not take a student to the university for his whole
time. He had found that the best men he had turned
out at Tinsley Park had been those who had started
with him at the age of 16, who had devoted two (or in
some cases th re 3) years to study at the university for
two or three days per week, and had put the rest of their
time in at the collieiy. He had turned out some very
good young fellows, and they were a credit to the place.
One of them, he was sorry to say—a very promis’ng
young man—wa^ killed at the Front in 1915. The
system he had referred to was the one that appealed to
him, because he did not believe in a student losing
touch absolutely with the practical work. The collieries
around Sheffield, and in South and West Yorkshire,
were in a position to allow a student to spend three
days at the university and three at the pit, and
that was a system which be had found to work
admirably. The students need not draw the line even
at the day classes at the university. They could attend
evening schools in addition. He himself, when in Leeds,
used to go to the university half the time, and put in five
nights a week at evening classes in addition. He thought
it was open to any young man of ordinary health and
strength to do the same. If a student put in three
years, or even two, straight away at the university, with-
out any colliery work, he (Mr. Laverick) was always
afraid of his being spoilt for that practical work at the
coal face that eveiy student nowadays was expected to
go through.

Mr. F. Oxley (Sheffield University) considered it of
the greatest importance that boys intending to bocome
mining engineers should be educated with that end in
view, and should go to the universities prepared by
their previous education to take advantage of the
instruction provided, i.e., they should go equipped with
a sound knowledge of mathematics, physics, chemistiy
and mechanics. Secondly, he believed that it was
advisable for the boy to spend a year or so at the
colliery before commencing his technical education. By
doing so he was, in the speaker’s opinion, more caj able
of taking an intelligent interest in the instruction
given. If he were the right kind of boy, the practical
experience he had obtained would make him take up
the theoretical part of his training with a greater zest.
If he were not the right kind of boy, he would probably
have found the work so distasteful that he would try some
new and more congenial field. Another point in favour
of this method was that the boy’s education was com-
pleted at a time more nearly coinciding with that in
which he would have to test his prowess in the Home
Office examinations. Prof. Hardwick bad stated that
there were a variety of courses available for theintending
mining engineer. Was not this fact rather confusing
to the persons who had to choose for the boy, and would
it not be better if standardised courses of instruction
were recommended by such a body, say, asthe Institution
of Mining Engineers? It should be possible for a
committee of the institution, by studying the courses
given by the various teaching institutions, to evolve a
course or courses which would have its seal as being
suitable for boys intending to take up mining engi-
neering as a profession. Probably he (the speaker) was
prejudiced, but he believed that the mining diploma
course of the Sheffield University had a number of
good points. The course was one of the “ sandwich ”
type, and was of four years’ duration, the students
spending six months at the university and six months
at the colliery. By this arrangement the student was
kept in touch with the practical affairs at the colliery
much more than would be the case if he spent, say,
three sessions of nine months each at the university,
with, in consequence, but little opportunity for obtaining
practical experience of any value during that time,
There would be less likelihood, if he took the first-