1392

THE COLLIERY GUARDIAN.

June 27, 1913.

men, and if this man had only two hours to make
his inspection he would have to start from the
top of the pit, go down into the workings, and
back again, having made his inspection meanwhile.
When the night fireman had communicated to the
day fireman the condition of the places, the day
fireman went with the men into the district where they
had to work, and communicated with them, or to each
individual. The fireman went with the workmen into
the district, and stayed with them during the whole
shift, and saw that what was suggested by the night
fireman was carried out. The day and night firemen
took alternate weeks in some cases, but not always
The result under the other method that this rule would
require was that the night fireman could not communi-
cate to the day fireman the condition, but he must
communicate to each man, and it would take a long
time, as they arrived at different periods, extending
from 30 to 70 minutes. Under the existing system the
man who had made the inspection during the night had
to make two inspections, and might have seen something
during his second inspection that had developed, or got
better.

Mr. Pope said that all this regulation spoke about was
the examination that was to take place within two
hours before the commencement of work, and that was
the statutory examination imposed upon the fireman in
charge of the district, and the scheme of the Act was
one district one fireman, and a fireman with a district
big enough for him to handle, and no larger.

Sir Thomas Ratcliffe-Ellis said as far as the
words of the first part were concerned, if they could con-
fine it to one particular form in a particular district he
did not want “ firemen.” “ Fireman, examiner, or
deputy ” would do, and he would withdraw the first
amendment.

As to the time appointed, Mr. Wallwork said they
thought it should be the time appointed for the com-
mencement of work and not within two hours before
the commencement of work.

Mr. Blackett pointed out that the men did not
always go in when they were expected. If, when
they sent a deputy in at four o’clock in the morning to
examine the place, or at two o’clock, as they did, and
planned for the men to come in at six, and the men, for
some reason over which they had no control, failed to
come in at six o’clock, because they might have had
some discussion on some point, and did not get in until
half-past six, they would fail to carry out the provision
through no fault of their own, whereas if the words
were “ The time appointed for the men,” then they would
be all right. There might be some little disarrangement
that might occur to the winding machinery that would
take half an hour to put right. He admitted that his
criticism applied equally to section 64 of the Act.

Sir Thomas Ratcliffe-Ellis, however, taking
section 64, “ not exceeding two hours immediately
before the commencement of work in a shift as may be
fixed by the regulations,” suggested that if they said
that the two hours should date from a particular period
it would be within the meaning of the Act.

Mr. Forgie said it was a customary thing for miners
in Scotland to have meetings to discuss questions of
their own, which might take an hour, and then they
came an hour late, which would throw the working of
the pit out if they had to comply with this rule. A
chance breaking down of machinery might delay the
start by an hour.

His Lordship deferred his decision on this point
until the other amendment already discussed had been
again considered. He suggested : “ On the completion
of the inspection a fireman, examiner, or deputy shall
proceed to the appointed station, where he shall meet
the workmen and instruct them ” and so on, instead of
“he”—that is to say, instead of the same fireman,
examiner, or deputy who was required to make the
examination.

Mr. Pope said the Home Office regarded it as a very
important principle that the man who had made the
inspection and knew all about the place into which the
men were to go should communicate the information to
the workmen. The man who had made the examination
had first hand information. The other man would have
to carry in his mind a number of places. The regulation
was so drafted that it would not interfere with the
practice of having the examination before the shift
conducted either by the day fireman or by the night
fireman, because both practices were in vogue, but the
principle they desired to see carried out was, that the
man who had just examined the place and had com-
pleted his statutory examination, should be the person
to communicate to the men the condition of their
places.

Sir Thomas Ratcliffe Ellis said the retiring
fireman would have exceeded his nine and a half hours’
limit of work if he stopped to see all the men in.

Mr. Redmayne said there were three methods
throughout the country by which this inspection was
carried out. In Northumberland and Durham, before
the men went down to their working places, two hours
or less, the deputy went down the pit and made the
statutory inspection. While he was making that inspec-
tion, the men were coming down the pit and coming
into then- several districts. Taking a given district, the
men went into that district, and met the deputy at a
station some little distance back from the working face,
and he informed them as to the condition of their
places. In some places, in South Wales for instance,
there was another system, a second system, by which
the night shift fireman, where there was a night shift,
made the examination of the places—the statutory
examination—before commencing the work of the
morning shift; he went out of the pit and met the
incoming deputy, and informed him as to the condition
of the working places. That was the system just
described which was operated in Lancashire. There
was a third system in operation also in some parts of

South Wales by which the night shift fireman made
the statutory examination of the working places, met
the incoming men, and detailed to them the condition of
their places, just as the morning shift deputy did in the
case of Northumberland and Durham. The Home
Office said that either that or the first system should be
adopted. Sir Thomas Ratcliffe-Ellis’s point was that
if the morning shift deputy was to make the inspection,
and to remain with the men the whole of their shift he
would have in some cases to exceed the 9J hours, but
the Eight Hours Act is being observed where that
system was operative. It was only a question of
organisation and arranging a timetable. As to the
suggestion that the night fireman should communicate
to the day fireman places that required attention, and
then that the day fireman should go in with the men
and see himself during that shift that those places were
attended to, the Chief Inspector said that if the fireman
was to take the men severally into their different
working places, by the time he had done the shift would
be nearly ended.

Sir Thomas R atcliffe-E llis here called Mr. Frowen,
a fireman, from Monmouthshire. He also called Mr.
L andless, the manager of the collieries of the Executors of
Messrs. John Hargreaves Limited, inLancashire, who said
he had tried both systems. After the passing of the Eight
Hours Act, they started by the day fireman going down
in front of the men and making the inspection for that
shift, and then he would come out before the termina-
tion of the shift. They found that that was not
conducive to safety, because the discipline was so lax,
due to the change of authority towards the termination
of the shift, and that the place was left in an unsafe condi-
tion very often. The result was that after a lengthened
trial they reverted to the system which they were asking
now to be allowed to work under by the amendment.
Under the other system, in some cases there might be
time, but in all cases the time would be so limited that
the work would be done in a very unsatisfactory manner.
It was important that the incoming fireman should see
the whole shift through, and that there should be no
change of authority.

Mr. Pope said the tendency to hurry would be an
argument in favour of having an examination by the
day fireman who was going to spend his day with the
men. That could be easily remedied by putting the
night fireman’s time for coming on a little later. Again,
he was much more likely to hurry it over when talking
to a man like a fireman than if he were talking to the
men whom he had to see out.

Mr. Chambers said that in Yorkshire the two hours
before the commencement of the shift was the very
busiest part of the day. The morning man who took
charge of the morning shift went down soon after

5	o’clock in the morning if the work was to commence
at 6 o’clock. The same men did not go down every day.
There were a lot of absentees every day, and those
vacancies had to be filled up. In Yorkshire it was the
practice of the night fireman to examine two hours
before the day fireman went down. If the night fireman
had completed his examination, commencing at 4 o’clock
and finishing by 6 o’clock, and he was getting ready for
the work to commence at 6 o’clock, he would have to
begin to see the men out a considerable time before

6	o’clock, or else they could not commence then.

Mr. Charles Reid said in Fifeshire the custom was
a varying one. They had some pits where the fireman
went down about 4 o’clock and made his inspection in
the morning., At other pits the custom was for the
night fireman to make an inspection and to see the
incoming fireman at 6 o’clock and report to him the
condition of the mine. That, he thought, was the better
system.

Mr. Garside Phillips said the custom in Warwick-
shire was to make the night shift deputy report to the
incoming or day shift deputy. He had a strong opinion
that the night deputy, travelling backwards and for-
wards through his district during his shift, made his
inspection with far greater knowledge than a man
coming on the place two hours before the men came in
the morning. With the full knowledge that the deputy
had of the district he was travelling in. he could convey
information to the incoming deputy in a much more
concentrated and intelligible form than if he had to
convey that information to every individual man going
over the place.

Mr. Thomas Griffiths said the present system in
South Wales generally was for the night fireman to
examine for the day fireman, but he had had experience
of both systems. The day fireman at one time used to
examine for the day shift. That was prior to the Eight
Hours Act when they had time to do so ; but since the
introduction of the Eight Hours Act they had found
that they could not do it. When witness was a fireman
he slept late on an occasional morning and had to rush
to make his inspection in time. Now there was no late
sleeping, because the night fireman was there to do the
work. There was another weakness in the day inspec-
tion. He had to get up at three o’clock in the morning,
and it took him an hour to go down to the pit bottom,
and then he had to walk, say, for two hours. After he
had done that, naturally he wanted something to refresh
his inner wants. In another half-an-hour or three-
quarters of an hour he had breakfast. There was that
time lost. If there was anything wanted to be done
which was reported by the night fireman the day fireman
was in a position to go at once and deal with it. The
probability was that if he had not had to have three
shifts he would have remained as he was.

Mr. Walker, divisional inspector for Scotland, said
the practice was for the fireman to go down to make his
inspection prior to the shift commencing work. The
man who actually made the inspection of the place
should be the man to pass the men who were to work in
those places. There was not sufficient space in the
forms to t<41 of all the places. He did not think the
man who had made the inspection could put into a

report all the particulars of everything that was wrong
in the district. As to the question of time, it was only
a question of bringing the night shift man in a little later
if he was to make the inspection for the first shift.
That would give the night shift fireman time, if there
was any difficulty, to pass the men in.

Mr. Mottram, divisional inspector of mines in York-
shire, said he concurred with everything Mr. Walker
had said upon this particular point. It meant that the
deputies would require to alter their time of going into
the pit.

Mr. Edward Williams, speaking for the deputies,
said he should like to ask Mr. Redmayne whether it was
the intention of the Home Office that the deputy should
constantly work the nine and a-half hours, which was
the maximum of the Act. It was the almost general
practice in the coalfields that the deputy did not stay
longer than was required. Now, as proposed by the
Home Office, it would be the minimum, not the
maximum.

Mr. Sumnall, on behalf of the North Staffordshire
Underground Colliery Firemen’s Association, supported
him. He said he had never had a fatal accident in his
districts during this period working under the present
system.

Mr. Smillie said the majority of the 800,000 men
whom they represented were working under the system
advocated by the colliery owners at the present time,
and he had found that those who were working under
that system were satisfied with it and believed it to be
the best. Those who were working under the other
system were satisfied with it, and thought that the
heavens would fall if it was changed. He did not think
there was any real objection to either system.

The Referee suggested to Mr. Pope that he ought
to make some alteration in this rule which would make
it fit in with Sir Thomas Ratcliffe-Ellis’s suggestion.

Sir Thomas Ratcliffe-Ellis said if his lordship
would look at Clause 39 as he had amended it, he would
see that it would apply to both systems; it would apply
to one system or the other. The important words were:
“ On the completion of the inspection, the fireman,
examiner or deputy ”—which might be the fireman who
had examined it, or it might be the fireman who had
received the information. Then, if his lordship would
look at the next amendment that he had put on the
paper, “ If the fireman, examiner or deputy who makes
the examination before the commencement of work in
the shift is unable to proceed to the appointed station
and meet the workmen and instruct them as to the
places of work and as to any special precautions neces-
sary to be observed by them, he shall give the fireman,
examiner or deputy who immediately succeeds him full
information to enable him to comply with this regula-
tion.” If the man was going to stay with that shift, as
it was in vogue now, it applied to that, so that this
clause, if altered as suggested, would not interfere
with any existing system.

The Referee, as to the previous amendment, said he
was not going to alter the words, “ Preceding the com-
mencement of work.” Then the alteration came in the
next sentence. He suggested the following:—“ On the
completion of the inspection, he ”—that is, the night
fireman—“ shall proceed to the appointed station, where
he shall report to the incoming fireman all information
necessary to enable the latter to instruct the workmen
as to their places of work, and as to any special precau-
tions necessary.”

Sir Thomas Ratcliffe-Ellis said that would quite
apply to the case he had been putting, where the last
duty of a man was to make the inspection; but sup-
posing there were cases here and there where a man
went earlier than the shift and made the inspection,
communicated with the workmen, and left the workmen
during the shift ? It would not apply. In that case,
he understood, he did not communicate to the fireman,
but communicated to the men.

The Referee finally adopted the following wording:—
“ On the completion of the inspection, he shall proceed
to the appointed station, where he shall either meet the
workmen and instruct them as to their places of work,
and as to any special precautions necessary to be
observed by them, or shall report to the incoming
fireman all information necessary to enable the latter to
do so.”

Sir Thomas Ratcliffe-Ellis proposed: “This
clause shall not apply to a repairing shift of workmen
which may accompany the fireman, examiner or deputy,
provided the fireman, examiner or deputy precedes
them, and examines and finds safe the place where they
are to work.”

Mr. Pope said his point was that that would be an
offence against the Act; it was contrary to section 63 of
the Act that any workman should pass beyond a station
until the part of the mine beyond the station had been
examined. It was equally at variance with the practice
under the 1887 Act.

Mr. Pilkington said that when the fireman went
round on his examination, say in the morning, it had
been the custom in Lancashire for a great many years,
and it must be a very safe practice or the mining
inspectors would have objected to it, to take with him a
few workmen as a repairing shift. He preceded those
workmen, and if he saw something wrong he left one or
two of those men at each of the spots to repair it and make
it safe. He then completed his round, came back, and if
there was any danger in any of those particular places
he revisited them, then came out, and passed the men in.
If they had to do it as the Home Office suggested, it
would simply put the work back two hours, which was
the extent of the examination, because the fireman
would not be able to take those men in with him.

Mr. Smillie said the miners were absolutely opposed
to this proposal.

The Referee rejected the amendment.

The next amendment was to omit lines 9 to 14, “ He
shall externally examine the safety lamp (where safety